Yeah, so why? [Laughter]. Fr. Andrew: Yeah, which makes no sense if you think atone means make up for or pay off or whatever, some kind of satisfaction theology. Thank you. Since I have always wanted to understand ancient texts through the lens of their original context, I have taken a keen interest in Judaism. Yeah, so heres the thing, that the King James Bible translates this word, when its used for, Fr. Fr. It may be the case that this scholarship does vindicate the claims of Orthodox Church, but much more work needs to be done connecting the dots. Stephen De Young finishes up the discussion of Revelation, Chapter 12, and starts on Chapter 13. They werent sitting there with the knife, and keep the fire going at the burnt-offering altar, because someone might show up with a pigeon. And then, verse 17, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the Prophet, saying: He himself took our infirmities and bore our sicknesses. So Matthew is saying this is now fulfilled, the Suffering Servant passage of Isaiah, by Jesus healing ministry of sickness and demon-possession. Stephen De Young is the author of God Is a Man of War and The Religion of the Apostles from Ancient Faith Publishing. Stephen: Yes, involving metallurgy for weapons of war and those kind of things. Stephen De Young finishes his discussion about Romans Chapter 11. Fr. So if you were to translate Azazel as the goat that goes away, then the other one becomes the goat that is who he is and makes things come into being. [Laughter] Like, it doesnt, Fr. So, it was good talking with you. Fr. We need the blood, because were going to use the blood to do something. Stephen De Young and Ancient Faith Ministries. Fr. Is the ecclesial body of Eastern Orthodoxy the most orthodox (faithful to the apostles), or is the most faithfulness to orthodoxy perhaps found in a Protestant denomination, or maybe Roman Catholicism? He's the host of the Whole Counsel of God podcast and a co-host of the Lord of Spirits podcast from Ancient Faith. Stephen: When the subject of atonement comes up in most Western theological circles, this is where they go, is to Isaiah, specifically Isaiah 53:4-5, which has those famous lines about he was wounded by our transgressions; by his stripes we are healed, all of that language. Andrew: Thank you for calling, Father. Fr. And so when the lots are cast, one of these two goats is designated as the goat for Yahweh, and the other goat is designated as the goat for Azazel. This is. That is that part of the ritual. Stephen De Young The V. Rev. Andrew: Yeah, right, exactly. With the Day of Atonement ritual, theres two goats, a goat for Yahweh and a goat thats sent off to Azazel, but I thought in Matthew 25 it said that goats go to hell. [Laughter]. Fr. Copyright 2005-2023 Ancient Faith Ministries, Inc.All Rights Reserved. And if they did, what was that signifying when they laid hands on it? Hence, the emergence of Rabbinic Judaism. Fr. Fr. Stephen De Young is not only leading the charge for Orthodox apologetics in a world of secular biblical scholarship, but he is also doing us all a favor by reviving the cosmic frame of ancient Christians, giving hope to a jaded culture desperately looking for a re-enchanted world in which it can fully participate. That mentions Azazel, doesnt it? The definition is not as simple as it may seem, since some may employ it metaphorically such as referring to a giant of industry. [Laughter] Yeah, not all goats are the same in every reference in Scripture, but Fr. So theres this idea that works were being taught and handed down. So St. Luke is doing this narratively, and Hebrews is just giving it to us theologically, explaining it to us. https://t.co/vM0ulUmY0s, More than Schooling: The Perils of Pragmatism in Christian Attitudes Toward the Liberal Arts by Robin Phillips https://t.co/wh5X6dP63s, A post shared by Robin Phillips (@robin__phillips), Nine Things I Wish Someone Had Told Me About Parenting Teenagers, Barbados Sea Turtles and the Desire For God, G.K. Chesterton and the Sacramental Imagination, Interview with Ancient Faith about Gratitude in Lifes Trenches, The AI Apocalypse is Happening Right Nowbut not in the way you think, Virtue and Classical Education: A Commencement Address to a Graduating Class, understand ancient texts through the lens of their original context. Stephen: Yes, so allow me to feed that a little bit. Fr. Stephen: Im Um, actually"ing you in real time. So hes not sacrificed to Azazel. Andrew: Yeah, another super-important point, that the goat that gets the sins is not killed and cannot be killed as a sacrifice. 1 John 2:1 talks about Christ as the high priest who intercedes in prayer, and then 2:2 says that Christ is the atonement, not only for our sins but also for the whole world. Andrew: Yeah, I know. At first, it appears the book will address these questions, for Fr. Okay, by all means. Our sins came back to us!. Thats why this is the day when everything has to be purified. Fr. Fr. We appreciate hearing from you. Andrew: Yeah, right, and it probably should be noted that that doesnt contradict what came before. Fr. The only other place where the phrase for the whole world, or the phrase the whole world, tou olou kosmou, occurs in 1 John is in chapter 5, the verse we read: The whole world lies under the power of the evil one. So if you want to interpret the whole world in 1 John 2:2 as referring to the people in the world, then St. John is saying that all the people in the world lie under the power of the evil one, which would include himself and the Church, and that makes no sense in the context of the epistle where hes clearly distinguishing between two groups of people. When hes turning three pages! Fr. They meant, at the time, was putting man and God together at one. That was the intention. Okay, but before we get to the actual New Testament, theres some stuffsurprise, surprise, Lord of Spirits listeners!theres other literature that surrounds the New Testament that informs whats going on in the New Testament. Now, this doesnt mean, like, he was Santa, keeping a list all year, like the high priest was going around spying on people and seeing all the stuff they did and writing it down. Fr. Stephen De Young The V. Rev. I think thats the King James Version, at the beginning of Acts. Instagram, RSS & iTunes Andrew: Thats fine. Fr. Dr. Stephen De Young is Pastor of Archangel Gabriel . Fr. Fr. Its just regular I mean, the tent-covering of the tabernacle was made from goat hair. I dont say, I got up this morning and wrapped my clothes around me.. Christ is both goats. Fr. Father Dr. Stephen De Young traces the lineage of Orthodox Christianity back to the faith and witness of the apostles, which was rooted in a first-century Jewish worldview. What theyre translating as ours should actually be translated as our sins. Theres a whole bunch of lexical stuff about that. Kuehn, S., Monster. Andrew: [Laughter] That is true, but you cant have the parallel with Shark Week then. Yes, yes, yes! Fr. Fr. That is not a false etymology, although usually etymologies that go like that are; theyre just nonsense. The poor goat. I know. Andrew Damick, Michael Landsman, and Ancient Faith Radio, Fr. Andrew: Exactly. And then he also takes away the sins of the world, meaning the sins that the people commit; he takes away their sins. Andrew: Yeah! Well, the text doesnt actually say how many there were; there were three gifts. Andrew: Yeah, all those technological advancements. Fr. Stephen: Yeah, you dont get much worse than that. Andrew: But we have two goats. This is a giant exercise of throwing the baby out with the bathwater combined with an historical amnesia propagated by lazy anti-intellectualism. Stephen: This doesnt mean its not historical, because any historian has to choose details to include and details to omit, and will write about things and describe things in certain ways. Its not like the priests are sitting there waiting, like I get to the end of vespers and sit and wait to see if anybodys going to come to confession. Stephen: Do you have to pay royalties now that you said that? Well say what gets done with it first, then well talk a bit about Azazel. The Judaism at the time of Christ was entirely centered on the temple, but the temple was destroyed in AD 70. Okay, so how is that related to what weve been talking about? Stephen: Yeah! Fr. Thats like everyones evening devotional reading right there. Great Value. Stephen: Antiochus IVEpiphanes was not his last name. Stephen: We dont want any. Andrew, or the Orthodox Church, or anyone else just coming and bashing on Western churches and saying, Ha ha ha! Fr. Stephens book with glee, looking forward to having ammunition with which to spar with the next Protestant who told me that all we need is the Scriptures, or the next Orthodox or Catholic who told me that all we need is Scripture plus the Patristics. Fr. Stephen De Young. The Nephilim were said to be a race or a group of people that had distinct physical characteristics of large size and great strength. Stephen: Who get what St. Matthew is doing here, and not only do they get what St. Matthew is doing here, but they talk about this in terms of atonement. Fr. Stephen: And its not, you know, some kind of sacred gold mined from the holy mountain. Stephen: The Antiochus was obviously a family name of the Seleucid dynasty, and they all took these titles. So one of them was Antiochus, I believe it was the [First, or else Seleucus III], was Soter: the Savior. Fr. Stephen: [Laughter] So that is what is done with the goat for Yahweh in the ritual. Fr. All right, thank you! Fr. They come into power in the same way that our sin brings us under the power, brings us into bondage under those hostile powers. Andrew: Yeah. The books subtitle, preface, and publishers blurb on the back seem to over-promise what the book actually delivers. Stephen: [Laughter] Nothing to do with thatas far as I know. I dont know. They think that sins are put on animals and then the animals sacrificed to Godthat never happens in the Scripture anywhere. Andrew Stephen Damick, Fr. Photius: Yes, sir. So why isnt this more widely understood? Fr. The Sons of God as a Polemic against Royal Immortality: A Philological and Literary Comparison of Genesis 6:14 and the Epic of Kirta, WHO 'FELL DOWN' TO OUR EARTH? For anyone who leaves the Orthodox faith for Protestantism, this becomes an easy issue to take up and throw stones back at the Orthodox Church. Fr. The primary focus in this essay will be on The most significant biblical passage for the fallen angels tradition . Stephen De Young, I felt I had finally come home. I will not. Stephen: Theres a tendencyand this is not an indictment of anybody, because, I mean, Ive heard scholars whom I greatly respect publicly talk about, when theyre talking about sacrifices in the Old Testament, say, Oh, yeah, the priest would put the sins on the animal and then kill it, and Im like thats its just not there! Stephen De Young continues the discussion of Revelation, Chapter 13. And then, so the Israelites are referred to as sheep sort of all through the Old Testament, and their leaders as shepherds, because theyre these sheep who are now set free from Egypt and brought out into this new pasture, all of that symbolism. Im going to describe this. Its not about some abstract concept or mechanism of salvation; its about the ritual that everyone that the people receiving this Gospel would have known, or, if they were coming in from the nations, they would have been told about this: it was part of their inheritance now, because theyre becoming part of Israel. Maybe Fr. Andrew: Yeah, which were actually about to show you how its the opposite. So where does that word? The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Consequently, I greeted the arrival of Fr. Now, a couple notes. So there are others, certainly Hebrews has a very detailed, and were going to Hebrews is going to be peppered throughout this half of the show, but it has a very detailed description and connection between Christ and the Day of Atonement ritual, as were going to see. Stephen uses historical scholarship to nudge the reader closer to the Orthodox position. A lot of them who didnt know 2 and 3 John existed accepted 1 John. Stephen: Right, and taken outside the camp. He holds a PhD in Biblical Studies from Amridge University and is the host of the The Whole Counsel of God podcast and co-host of the Lord of Spirits podcast on Ancient Faith Radio. Fr. What is spiritual reality like? Fr. I hear you. [Laughter]. Fr. If it read that way, then youre asking the natural question, which is what mediates between? This is like Joseph in Genesis. Andrew: All right, well, welcome back to the third half of The Lord of Spirits. Fr. Fr. Wow. Fr. So the place where its the most threat, inside the sanctuary, thats the place that the Day of Atonement is concerned and focused on, purifying and cleansing from this taint. I was pleased to encounter Sorensens Response to Ken Ammis review of my paper Were the Nephilim Genetically Psychopathic? since I am always up for a discussion, always up for correction, and always up for sharpening iron with ironeven when it tends to lead to someone getting cut. Dont the daily offerings cover it? Fr. On the Origin of Watchers: A Comparative Study of the Antediluvian Wisdom in Mesopotamian and Jewish Traditions, The Antediluvian Origin of Evil in the Mesopotamian and Jewish Traditions A Comparative Study, Response to Ken Ammi's review of my paper - "Were the Nephilim Genetically Psychopathic? Ive said that about 20 times tonight, but this is I dont know. How does God see it working? Its everybodys sins. The real question we want to know is which Christian tradition has faithfully carried on the legacy of the apostles. Andrew: Yeah, yeah, yeah! Fr. Fr. The Centar za Racionalnu Teologiju/Center for Rational Theology has produced some information regarding Giants in the Bible including that Everybody knows about GoliathAnd the enigmatic Nephilim and that, additionally, there are quite a few more giants and giant races mentioned in the Bible. They also elucidate The name Nephilim etymologically. In addition to chapters on the Trinity and atonement, the book features sections on the powers of the spiritual world, the saints, creation, Israel, and the law of God. Stephen De Young, goes back to what I explained earlier: our understanding of the Judaism of Jesus' day has been tinctured by Rabbinic Judaism, which we anachronistically assume reflects the tradition of the Pharisees. Its amazing. Fr. And so, of course, as weve mentioned before in a previous episode, this is over against the Apkallu myth and other similar storiesPrometheus in the Greek tradition. And then theres this weird And then at the end of Luke: They worshiped him, returned to Jerusalem with great joy, and were continually in the Temple, blessing and praising God. Stephen: Yeah, and hes often associated with other symbols like the caduceus of enlightenment and that kind of thing, but well talk about that more here in the second half. Stephen: This goat-spirit of the wilderness is then picked up in a lot of later imagery, probably the most famous being Baphomet, this sort of Satan-figure or devil-figure. Thats another one of those things like the rope that happened later. Fr. You could just call your band Mercy Seat and be like, Were a cover band, just like the title says.. This is from an apostle, letting us know how to interpret that Isaiah passage. And then, through the sinning thats going on around them and even within them, they develop this taint where they are made common again. Photius: Oh, man! Were the Nephilim Genetically Psychopathic? These are possibly the basis of the Greek Gigantomachy, which was condemned by the Risen Christ as Satans Throne, both genetically and spiritually. So weve got: I go out to my sheep. Sorry. En (James A.) Well, who would have been doing this? [Laughter] So, yeah, thats the word itself. What is being atoned for? So, sort of prophetically, it said theres going to be this sort of eschatological Day of Atonement thats going to take care of Azazel and take care of this sin and corruption and take care of sacred space sort of once and for all. Fr. Stephen: And youll see it in even Orthodox translations, because a lot of our early Orthodox translations were either utilizing or aping the King James Version language, and so you can kind of see how you can get there, like if you go from a very developed theological idea, where you dont really know what the Hebrew word means, so youre thinking, Well, okay, God is enthroned behind the ark of the covenant, between the cherubim. Could that be the real AI apocalypse that we should be worried about? Stephen: Thats a reference you probably didnt get, but you laughed anyway. Im going to give you this job, so look this up, Richard. [Laughter], Fr. Product details Publisher : Ancient Faith Publishing (October 18, 2021) Language : English Paperback : 160 pages ISBN-10 : 1955890048 ISBN-13 : 978-1955890045 Item Weight : 7.5 ounces Hes wrapped about with a scarlet, Fr. That perfect union thereby sanctifies, makes holy, purifies humanity in our basic composition. We talked a little bit about that. Fr. All right, so weve covered the basics of the Day of Atonement ritual and the two goats, here on Goat Week on The Lord of Spirits, and were going to get back in just a moment, but first were going to take a short break, so well be right back. Foiled again! Fr. Andrew: Yeah, so there is some overlap there, but, yeah, its not a perfect, total, categorical overlap. Andrew: Yeah, and if you look at Leviticus I mean, you dont have to read the whole book of Leviticus, but if you look at Leviticus 16, which is the chapter that has this ritual in it, you can just read it, and it shows Im looking at it right now, and it says: Aaron must then present the goat which has been designated by lot for the Lord, and he is to make it a sin-offering, but the goat which has been designated by lot for Azazel is to be still alive. Then later on it makes the reference to him putting his hands on the goat for Azazel and sends it out, but theres not unless Im missing it, it doesnt actually say anything about putting his hands on the other goat. Well, weve looked at this one particular ritual, and now we know what it does, and it does the same thing in us, for us, around us, throughout the whole cosmos. "Atonement" is a word invented for the translation of the Bible into English, because there was no good English word for the concept it describes. Andrew: No, I dont think so, but yeah [Laughter] Hello, all of you Jonathan Pageau fans out there. Fr. Im like, its: You have two goats And now theres going to be all these rumors: See? So when Peter is called to go see Cornelius the centurion whos a Roman, whos a Gentile, whos from one of the pagan nations, he sees this vision of the animals, the formerly unclean animals, being lowered in this cloth. Stephen: And so Antiochus IV EpiphanesEpiphanes meant he was the manifestation of a god on earth. Fr. Fr. Theyre cursing him; hes taking away their sins. Sometimes, it is used to describe someone who is a foot taller than average; other times, it refers to someone who is many feet taller, an entire body length taller, or, perhaps, various body lengths taller. And so, when the tabernacle is first consecrated, all of those objects are built. [Laughter] No, theyve got to both be great. Stephen: Yeah, and note that its not just Jews who are doing these Day of Atonement things. And its interesting: I recently heard a certainhe identifies as a Protestant, but most Protestants would not identify him as a Protestantbiblical scholar talking about atonement, and who tried to read St. Athanasiuss On the Incarnation and just said, I cant tell what hes doing in terms of his In terms of trying to address it in terms of atonement theory. But he was particularly significant in the understanding of both Judaism of the Second Temple period and early Christianity as not only the first sinner, as we already talked about a little bit, but also as a teacher of sin. Fr. Yes, yes, I do have a question, and it pertains to 1 John 2:2. Fr. Fr. Fr. Stephen: So where combinations have been made. In response to what he viewed as not merely a malformation but a destruction of the Eucharist in Roman practice, John Calvin was dogmatic that the Eucharist is not a sacrifice. But when Judaism was invented in the 6th century, they rejected much of their heritage that overlapped with Christianity, from the Septuagint to the doctrine of God being more than one person. Hes not sacrificed to anybody. Stephen: This is like 25 pages of dissertation; I could just refer you back thereno. You know what Im saying? Andrew: [Laughter] Right, no, no, no, theres more. Stephen: And the people, they mock him and they spit on him. About Fr. Its funny: sometimes well getpeople will ask us questions like: Which Bible scholar says this? The fact that some of the most exciting work done in the Second Temple context to the New Testament is being undertaken by non-orthodox scholars like N.T. We have a text in the New Testament that says that those very verses were fulfilled in Christs ministry. Andrew: Yeah, where that stuff is depicted as being good, like This spirit came and gave us this wonderful, beautiful knowledge! And the Bible is saying, No! Fr. Andrew: Yeah, it was created for English Bibles to translate a couple of words, one from Hebrew, one from Greek. What do you do with it? 190 Court St, Charleston, WV 25301 | Phone: 304-346-0106 | Email: office@stgeorgecharleston.org. Stephen: [Laughter] Its really creepy. Is he just saying, Im going to come into this. Now, while "the psychological characteristics of the Nephilim are not specifically described in the Bible" neither is that they "had distinct physical characteristics of large size and great strength" nor that they were "generally pictured as being very proud, belligerent, sexually aggressive, and prone to conflicttall, strong, and belligerentphysically intimidatingNephilic characteristics of height, musculature, and psychopathology." Emmaus isnt mentioned anywhere else in the Bible except 1 Maccabees and St. Lukes gospel right here. [Disgusted noises] All this disillusioning. By using our site, you agree to our collection of information through the use of cookies. It fell into disrepair. It does not offer a literature review or footnotes for those wishing to explore these issues further, and the bibliography is scant; instead, the book offers a more popular tone that makes it accessible to a wide readership. Fr. So you have to go back past the Greek a little bit. The Bible refers to people who are (generically) tall, (generically) very tall, or (generically) of great stature. [Laughter] Dont the daily offerings cover it? Fr. And so thats one significant element of this eschatological Day of Atonement, and this is the one thats particularly emphasizedits all in Hebrewsbut this is particularly emphasized in the Johannine literature. Fr. We might go a little further if we understand that the body is this nexus of powers or potentialities, to say, well, all of the human powers and all of the human capacities, but for St. Athanasiusand St. Irenaeus does something very similar before him by a couple of centurieshe means spatio-temporally, that Christ not only sanctifies humanity in its parts and in its powers, but the moments of a human lifebirth, childhood, young adulthood, adulthood, up to and including a human deathand that by living through those, not just, again, spatially, but temporally, those things are sanctified and purified by the union of Christs divinity and humanity in his Person. And the ark he would dip his index finger in and then sort of whip it in order to sprinkle the blood onto the ark itself. Fr. Stephen De Young and Ancient Faith Radio Subscribe This podcast takes us through the Holy Scriptures in a verse by verse study based on the Great Tradition of the Orthodox Church. No, I know what youre saying. So its not about me, or me and Fr. (2015). Indeed, under the Law, almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. That last part, of course, often gets quoted out of context. So thats what were going to do now. Its a huge, huge deal, super, super important. Fr. Fr. Fr. Andrew: Yeah, just list off the commandments. Basically, you extract its blood. Fr. The Book of Enoch: Scripture, Heresy, or What? Fr. Yet as I began reading The Religion of the Apostles, my pride quickly turned to shame. Fr. Fr. Fr. Andrew: In the noun form, right, when its used for the thing on the top of the ark of the covenant, as mercy-seat, which is lovely. I liked the book, and I am so grateful for the discussions it has spawned within my own Orthodox congregation concerning the role of historical scholarship in interpreting Scripture. Partially reviewing what the paper states about the Bible specifically. Stephen has blogged about previously here as well. On our next episode, were going to be starting a two-part series on sacred geography. Andrew: Indeed. It doesnt say that it was fulfilled by Jesus absorbing their diseases and becoming sick, or absorbing their demons and becoming possessed himself; he doesnt take it on himself in that way. Immediately after they are mentioned, Genesis goes on to discuss how the heart and minds of people became continually evil, and Gods flood judgement in response. This video is sponsored by Faithful Counseling. He is regarded by Josephus, for example, as the first heretic. Fr. But of course, what is impossible for man is possible for God. AFP publications include: Coming from a Protestant background and having read Revelations a couple of times. You know who you are. Andrew: Yeah, so someone comes in: So what did you do, pal? [Laughter], Fr. Andrew: Thank you very much, and God bless you all. Stephen: Weve talked about that theres kind of an anti-theosis that happens. Andrew: I mean, I love that word. Theyre preserved for us in Slavonic and were being copied in monasteries in the Orthodox world right up into the 16th century when the printing press was invented, so they were being deliberately preserved for us within the Church, not just accidentally we found them in the desert somewhere.. Dan: Yeah, yeah, thats really helpful. Stephen: Right, and as a quick note because you said it quickly, Yom Kippurthe Kippur comes from kefir.. Andrew: [Laughter] Yeah, actually we looked this up and we could find no link, but who knows? These lists include some notes and clarifications later shared by Fr. Johannes U. Ro and Diana Edelman, BZAW 534 (Berlin: de Gruyter, 2021), 263-88. So atonement is here to stay. Its really cool. Like, its lovely; its a very nice idea. Fr. Stephen: Let me throw you one quick correction here. Fr. Fr. So this is sometimes expressed as there were arguments about them; in reality it was just some communities had them and used them and some other ones didnt have them and therefore didnt. And by the way, those handful of later Greek usages seem to be based on the Jewish use of it, meaning its used in contexts where someone is making some kind of offering to a supernatural being, to a spiritual being. Fr. How the Devil Got His Hooves and Horns: The Origin of the Motif, "The Embarrassing and Alluring Biblical Giant," online at Bible and Interpretation (2 December 2015). Stephen wrote his PhD dissertation on the atonement, so he is well-qualified to address the issue. We just walked through the Day of Atonement ritual, the goat for Yahweh, the goat for Azazel, and what those things mean. Welcome! Fr. Fr. A dissertation submitted to the faculty of the School of Graduate Studies, Hebrew Union College - Jewish Institute of Religion (2009). You also find in 1 John 5:19 the whole world lies under the power of the evil one.. That makes perfect sense. He wants them to repent of those sins and to be purified by his coming. ), Ancient Tales of Giants from Qurman and Turfan: Contexts, Traditions, and Influences (Tbingen: Mohr Siebeck, 2016), The Landscape of Memory: Giants and the Conquest of Canaan.
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